Archive for Interviews

Daughter of Sweden: Cecilia Saverman on Reviving a Princess History Tried to Erase

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Cecilia Saverman doesn’t ease you into Cecilia Vasa’s world — she drops you straight into the madness. Five years of research left her with a life so outrageous it barely feels real: piracy confrontations that make you laugh and wince in the same breath, scandals that rattled royal courts across an entire continent, and family letters so chaotic they read like a soap opera you shouldn’t enjoy but absolutely do.

What Saverman captures is the full, contradictory force of Cecilia Vasa herself — heroine, caring mother, sharp diplomat, messy party princess, egocentric daredevil, unstoppable climber of mountains and faller into pits who always gets back up. With director Judith Hollander, she throws the audience between comedy and tragedy, intimacy and grandness, hope and surrender, never letting the story settle into one tone for long.

And beneath all the spectacle sits something fiercer: a history that was actively deleted, now brought forward almost as an act of defiance. Saverman isn’t preaching. She’s reclaiming. She wants audiences to feel closer to their own past, to recognise how stories about women become political whether anyone intends them to or not.

This is Cecilia Vasa returned to the stage — vivid, volatile, and impossible to ignore.

What’s the single most shocking thing about Cecilia Vasas life that will make people gasp?
– Well, since her life just keep getting crazier and more unfathomable for every step along the way, it’s hard to pick just one thing. My five year research was a never-ending rollercoaster.
Which moment in the show makes you laugh and wince at the same time? 
-There is an episode where her brother confronts her about her piracy, and she has to admit to a lot of what she’s done.
How far did you push the sex and scandal onstage, and why that exact level of explicitness?
-The sex aspect is suggestive, but not explicit. The scandal, however, shook the entire continent – f the royal courts are to be trusted about these matters, that is. While the acts in and of themselves plants the seed for her struggle for freedom and sets her off on her path in life, I’m more interested in the consequence of the acts, rather than the acts themselves.
Did you ever fear the play would be banned or spark a diplomatic row?
Last time Cecilia Vasa was in the UK she was thrown out, so lets hope I have better luck with the Swedish-UK relations.
Is Cecilia a heroine, a mess, or gloriously both — and why should we care?
– Yes, yes, and yes. On top of that – she is also related to Boris Johnson! She is a heroine, a caring mother, a smart diplomat, a messy party princess, an egocentric daredevil, an unstoppable force who will climb any mountain, fall into every pit and always get up.
Are there scenes that touch on coercion or questionable consent and how do you approach that?
– No
Is there a line in the script which makes you blush when you say it out loud?
-Not while playing.
How do you want audiences to feel about monarchy and power when they leave the theatre?
-Difficult question. I want them to want to know more, because it’s our history, I guess. I want them to feel close to our common history. Cecilia Vasa is a princess, a pirate, a mother of seven – and also just a human being.
Do you think that there is a feminist message here or about women’s ‘role’ in society then and now? 
– Yes. I think it’s impossible to tell a story about women today without it becoming political – in the same way I think that stories about lgbtq+ or about non-white people or about people who’s bodies are outside the norm automatically becomes political – whether it’s the intention or not. I wrote this story because Cecilia Vasa fascinated me to my core, and I saw so much of my surroundings, and myself, and my mother and society in her. It has never been about sending a message, but it becomes a message because it is a story that has never been told. It’s been actively deleted – which is of course very political – so bringing it forward might in a sense be an act of defiance .
What’s the one historical fact you refused to change, no matter how tempting the drama?
– Everything. It’s my interpretation of her life, but every fact is true.
How bawdy do the party scenes get, and how do you balance that with the darker fallout?
-I love tossing myself and the audience between highs and lows. My brilliant director Judith Hollander has created an intense balance between comedy and tragedy, intimacy and grandness, hope and surrender. She has so much to fight for, and sometimes she’s just hilarious. During my research I read many letters between her and her siblings, and it was like a soap opera. I would laugh out loud, between the horrors that they put themselves and each others through.
Have you ever had hecklers or walkouts, and what did you do when it happened?
-Not that I recall.
Would you ever stage a strictly adults‑only version — and what would you change?
– Maybe adding some more in the Elizabeth-scene, haha! The show is only 60 min now, so not everything can be in it…
What single image from the production do you want to haunt people for days, and why that image?
-You’ll have to come see the show! You’re in for a haunting treat!
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A Dark Line Upstairs: How a 1951 Disaster Speaks to 2021 Adulthood

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There’s a particular kind of artist who doesn’t treat catastrophe as a single event but as a texture — something that clings to the skin, shifts underfoot, and quietly rewrites the stories we tell about ourselves. In A Dark Line Upstairs, Matilde Vigna braids together two floods separated by seventy‑five years and a continent: the night the Polesine vanished under water, and the slow, private deluge of a woman packing up her life after a breakup. What emerges is not a neat metaphor but a restless conversation between past and present, between inherited trauma and contemporary drift, between the places we flee and the ones we pretend we’ve outgrown. It’s a debut that refuses the tidy arc, preferring instead the unstable ground where humour, grief, privilege, and generational doubt all mix together. We asked some questions…

1. Your play threads together two floods — one literal, one emotional. When did you realise that the 1951 Polesine disaster and a modern woman packing up her life belonged in the same breath?
The Covid pandemic forced me (us?) to reflect on loss. With all venues closed and all live performance forbidden, I felt like I lost everything. At the same time, this feeling seemed ridiculous in comparison both to those who lost someone, and to the fact of actually, physically losing everything — as I knew had happened to the people living in the area where I was born, 70 years ago.
(An area I ran away from as soon as I could — as I did from many other places — which sparked another reflection on roots: where am I really rooted? Is it possible to put down roots if you’ve forgotten your own? Etc., etc.)
Coming back to tragedy, talking to the wise people I’m proud to call friends made me realise that many things can fall under that category. Packing up your life in your 30s, after a break‑up, might feel like you’ve lost everything, and every step forward might feel like ten steps backwards. So why not place the two tragedies together, like two legs that advance one after the other… without a clear conclusion or moral, seeding questions and leaving them unanswered.
2. The press release describes the piece as “powerful, poetic, and sharply comic.” How do you find that balance between wry humour and the enormity of losing everything?
I think it’s a matter of touching a delicate object like a tragedy with respect — which to me means not indulging in the dark shades, but pairing them with some light strokes. It’s a light‑design concept: after looking at a light, the black feels darker.
I might add that one can find humour in anything. Of course there are things you can laugh about straight away (like our character who leaves her flat taking everything with her, even a dead houseplant) and other things that require more time (like tying your furniture to the wall with a rope or carrying the pigs upstairs. You might not laugh about that in your lifetime, but it can make audiences smile 75 years later).
3. The 1951 flood swallowed 70 square kilometres of the Polesine region overnight. What part of that historical catastrophe felt most resonant with the instability of contemporary adulthood?
I really don’t have an answer to this question. I feel there’s something there, but like in the play, the two are placed next to each other without resolving the matter. I have many thoughts (do I not want to put down roots because I fear being swept away by a catastrophe?) but no clear answers.
4. Moving house in 2021 becomes its own kind of micro‑catastrophe. What personal experience fed into that portrait of cardboard boxes, breakups, and rising mortgages?
I don’t know if this counts as a pro or a con, but my writing is never about me (I think my life is too little — but then that’s why we act in the end, isn’t it?). Rather, it’s a mosaic of stories I heard and glued together. A sort of cultural appropriation of my friends’ lives, as an account of “my generation.”
At first I thought our contemporary, bourgeois, first‑world little issues were in no way a tragedy — not when compared to real tragedies. But then everything can be a micro‑catastrophe (especially when it rains, right?) even when you compare it to something bigger. What changes is that you can laugh about it (or at least the audience can).
5. You talk about “coming to terms with chaos and the things we cannot control.” What chaos in your own life shaped this piece?
I guess the chaos is very much a generational insecurity — our inability to come to terms with the life and beliefs our parents had, for whom progress = wealth. How can we live by that same equation when it’s so clear now that our lifestyle means trampling on someone else’s life?
Chaos for me now also means coming to terms with my privilege. The woman in my show doesn’t want to buy furniture for her new flat because she has married the immaterial, while her parents push her to buy stuff. Alright, but… she owns a flat! (and a lot of stuff, as we know from her endless lists).
I guess what I want to convey is something along the lines of: our parents’ paradigm is not working, we cannot find a better one, maybe we should go back to our grandparents’ paradigm and start again (cooking bread in a common oven).
6. The sound design by Alessio Foglia turns the bare stage into a physical soundscape. What moment in the show relies most on sound to carry the emotional weight?
All the lines relative to the 1951 tragedy are accompanied by sound. It might seem simplistic, as it’s a 1:1 thing: the past always has a soundscape, the present never does. Somehow it felt impossible to relay the tragedy through acting, so we subcontracted all the emotional dirty work to sound.
I mean, as I say in the play: I’m Italian! …so the risk of melodrama was just around the corner (we’re far from that, still: better safe than sorry).
7. This is your playwriting debut, yet it’s already been nominated for Best New Italian Play at the Ubu Awards. What surprised you most about stepping into the role of playwright?
I think the main thing is that I cherish the responsibility of choosing which topics and which words the audience will listen to.
Then I realised I like to play with words, as if they were pieces in a giant jigsaw puzzle — the musicality, the rhythm, the repetitions… and the way in which, if words are put together in a certain way, the performer doesn’t need to add anything. (That’s the great lesson we all get from Shakespeare, I guess.)
Of course A Dark Line Upstairs is not perfect, but I’m quite sure magic happens in the cracks — when the play is not airtight, when the audience can connect the dots and place the last piece of the aforementioned jigsaw puzzle.
8. The piece moves between past and present seamlessly. How do you guide the audience through those shifts without losing them in the undertow?
The first trick is in the writing. When we’re in the past, the language is more lyrical, whereas in the “present day” moments the storytelling leans towards stand‑up comedy.
But mostly, it’s a sound/lighting thing. We had to shrink the whole production to its “Fringe size,” but the concept remains the same: the narration proceeds without halting, while the sound creeps in… and by the time the audience realises we’ve switched “world,” we’re deep inside it.
9. ZOO Venues is known for championing contemporary international performance. What made it the right home for your Edinburgh debut?
It has been a combination of factors. I was looking for a small room (some venues only have 40+ seats) whereas ZOO Playground 3 was just what I wished for my first time at the Fringe. And of course, being the first time (and preparing for the Fringe is quite an overwhelming experience) I wanted someone who would take me by the hand.
Furthermore, some of my friends had already performed there, so let’s say that beside its fame, ZOO Venues had some “close‑to‑heart” references… and please let me spend a word to thank them all for everything they’re doing for us!
10. You describe the story as “deeply Italian yet universally resonant.” What do you hope Fringe audiences — far from the Po River — carry out of the theatre with them?
The story touches many topics: our relationship with our roots (our family, the place we come from); whether we can decide to leave or not; what happens when we do (does it change whether it’s 1951 or 2021?); what we hold onto in order not to lose ourselves…
Even though audiences might not know where the Po River is, or which shape our local bread has, all these topics are quite relevant today, regardless of where any of us has been born and raised.
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Inside The Movement: Fringe Anarchy with Ethan & Gigi

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Some revolutions begin with manifestos. This one begins with two performers who are absolutely convinced they’re leading one. The Movement follows Ethan & Gigi — self‑appointed liberators, overconfident artists, and, depending on who you ask, either visionary or “legitimately unwell in a mental sense” — as they attempt to reshape the world through theatre. Their show is a chaotic, high‑energy act of political clowning that  insists the revolution won’t be televised, it’ll be live. 

In this interview, we talk about why they built a piece that blurs satire, activism and sheer unhinged commitment; how comedy can still connect people in a fractured moment; and what it means to ask an audience not just to watch, but to move, react, and become part of the disorder they’re staging. It’s theatre as provocation, theatre as mischief, theatre as a dare — and Ethan & Gigi are more than ready to break a few legs along the way.

You describe yourselves as artists who genuinely believe they’re leading a revolution. What’s the creative spark behind playing characters who are both delusional and completely committed?

GIGI: I gotta say…the spark behind playing people who are delusional and completely committed? That’s clown, baby! That spark comes from an urgent need to feel free in an ever-oppressive world. The clown has this big, beautiful dream about themselves and they either A) fail and it’s funny and the audience loves them for trying and everyone becomes connected through that particular access point of the recognition of your humanity or B) they succeed and it’s beautiful and they win. I cannot imagine a better use of my time! I mean what else is there but to be delusional and committed to the idea of a better world?  We either fail and it’s funny and sad and we become more deeply connected …or we win.

ETHAN: I wouldn’t say we are playing characters, but more so, caricatures of ourselves, the essence is completely: us. That’s our clown. What makes us the unique humans we are is what we put on the stage. Gigi and I genuinely want to participate in a revolution in real life, but we honestly don’t know how to do that. But what if we believed we could be the leaders of this revolution, and committed to this role 110%? THE MOVEMENT is the result of that delusion/vision.

The show sits between clowning and revolutionary politics. How do you strike the balance between satire and sincerity without tipping too far in either direction?

GIGI: This is a great question and something we often check in about.  There’s a part of the show that is undeniably satire, that we made not as clowns but as clever improvisers hungry to create a searing indictment of the American empire. At the end of the day, we wanna make sure we come across as idiots. Satire is more in the world of the bouffon which we do love to play with, but our pleasure in this show is wrapped up in being losers, not clever winners.

ETHAN: It’s completely a tight-rope balancing act, and what keeps us on the high wire is the sensitivity and vulnerability we lean into while we perform. Giving people permission to laugh AT YOU opens up a kind of a magical portal. The target of the humor in the show is always us, we are complete fools that believe ourselves to be competent, highly-skilled, and have all of the qualities of charismatic revolutionary leaders, when this isn’t quite the case.

You mention themes of artistic delusion, oppressive systems and the power of community. Which of those became the backbone of the show, and which emerged unexpectedly during development?

GIGI: Oppressive systems were the backbone.  This might seem like a joke but we’re activists first and foremost. We want to burn it all down. As for artistic delusion…we don’t have to try for that to be a theme, that’s just an organic byproduct of our delusion:  we are doing a clown show that we believe will radicalize people.  But the power of community was discovered as we were struggling to find an end to this show and to answer the question, “How do you start a revolution?”

ETHAN: When you make a show, sometimes it feels like wandering through a foggy forest, you can’t see, and it’s the artistic delusion that keeps you stumbling forward. You’re following the initial impulse that sent you out into the woods, and where you end up is often a total surprise. “How do we start a revolution?” was the impulse, and the power of community is where we ended up. When you want to dream big (like overthrowing and dismantling oppressive systems) – you can’t do this alone.

One of your supporters called the show “deeply stupid” in a complimentary way. What does “stupid” mean in your artistic vocabulary, and why is it useful?

GIGI: “Stupid” means to use your gut, not your brain.  It means to let your body lead even if you have no idea what is going to happen. It means to allow yourself to be illogical and to make mistakes. It’s useful because it’s freeing! We use “stupid” as our North Star and sometimes we ask ourselves, “How can we make this more stupid?”

ETHAN: When we take the stage, we are in pursuit of the quality of laughter that makes your belly hurt because you can’t stop, that type of laughter comes from the “stupid” place, not the “clever” one.

You’ve been described as brave, hardworking and possibly a bit unhinged. Do you think good clowning requires a willingness to push past normal social or theatrical boundaries?

GIGI: I think more than anything good clowning requires a willingness to push past your own limiting ideas and narratives about yourself and the world and if that happens to also result in pushing past normal social and theatrical boundaries, great! But sometimes people do things just for the sake of provocation, with no humanity or sensitivity behind it.  There’s no sense of self in that.  Good clowning allows us to see *you*.  Sometimes that leads to pushing past normal social and theatrical bounds but it’s not needed. Sometimes you end up doing something very safe, polite, normal and everyone relates to it and it’s the funniest thing.

ETHAN: Where you are in life is where you find yourself on the stage – especially as a clown. It’s a total reflection of your humanity, neuroses & all. It’s less about pushing social norms or theatrical boundaries, and more about where you’re willing to go within yourself. “Good” clown to us is when you see someone onstage, and as an audience member you feel & think: “Oh there you are. That’s you. You’re not hiding.” It’s more of a feeling than an intellectual thing, but you know when you experience it. Your standards for anything short of that level of vulnerability become extremely high.

You’ve said laughter can be an act of resistance. What do you think audiences are resisting when they laugh with you rather than at you?

GIGI: Wonderful question!  Sorry to clarify, we DO want you to laugh at us.  There is a freedom that comes with having a sense of humor about yourself and when others witness you bask in that freedom, it can be really inspiring.

ETHAN: Peeing.

You talk about the show being created through a “village” of mentors, teachers and friends. What did collective creation allow you to do that a traditional rehearsal process wouldn’t?

GIGI: Collective creation allows us to work our material in real time to see what works and what doesn’t.

ETHAN: What THE MOVEMENT means to us versus others is different, we all have our own unique experiences of the show. We love getting feedback from the audience and our community, and our show has been seen and passed through many hearts and minds. Everybody that has contributed their feedback, ideas, and direction has left their own imprint in the DNA of our show- and that can’t replicate that in a vacuum.

You’ve staged large‑scale stunts, including marching an audience through New York to perform in front of an LED truck. What attracts you to theatrical disruption outside conventional spaces?

GIGI: Referring back to the clown, we want to push ourselves to dream as big as possible so that other people feel pushed to do the same — did you hear about the couple that scaled the Empire State Building, waved a banner from the highest point, and got engaged while police helicopters swarmed around them? Way to dream! It got everyone’s attention and surely some folks thought to themselves, “I want to do that.”

ETHAN: The theatre is a place where we can shine a spotlight, and everyone looks exactly at that spot on the stage. The power of theatre is being able to shine that spotlight at ourselves and the world we live in, so we can illuminate and examine the unseen. That experience shouldn’t end when the show is over and the audience leaves. Staging performances outside of the theatrical container reminds us that we always have the power of the spotlight – life can be theatre. Also, when you step outside, the sun is in the sky, and that’s the biggest spotlight of all.

Your SoHo Playhouse performance on the anniversary of 9/11 was deliberately provocative. How do you navigate the line between meaningful provocation and empty shock?

GIGI: Always punch up.

ETHAN: In our world, there’s no shortage of bastards to kill.

You say you’re not here just to make people laugh — you’re here to make people free. What does “freedom” look like inside a one‑hour Fringe show at 11pm?

GIGI: It looks real stupid — you gotta come to find out!

ETHAN: There was your life before you joined THE MOVEMENT, and life after. Our show is what happens in between.

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Reclaiming La Goulue: Stella Kulagowski on Giving Louise Weber Her Voice Back

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Stella Kulagowski is the writer‑performer behind Louise: The Last Dance, the Fringe show that pulls Louise Weber — La Goulue herself — out from under a century of mythmaking and lets her speak, move, and breathe again. Kulagowski isn’t just interpreting Weber; she’s inhabiting her, stitching together the fragments history left behind and confronting the ways women and queer artists are still framed, consumed, and rewritten today. What emerges is a portrait that refuses nostalgia and refuses sanitisation — a raw, funny, furious reclamation of a woman who lived loudly, loved widely, and paid dearly for being unforgettable.

In this conversation, she talks about finding the real Louise beneath the legend, the power dynamics that shaped her rise and fall, and what it means to stand alone on stage and argue back on behalf of someone who never got to tell her own story.

1. Louise Weber’s life reads like a rise‑and‑fall myth — laundress to the highest‑paid entertainer in France, then back to the margins. What was the moment in your research when she stopped being a legend and became a living, breathing woman you felt compelled to inhabit?

There’s a moment in the research for a project like this where you stop reading about your subject and start feeling her. For me it was stumbling on the Lacombe footage, the documentary clip filmed not long before she died at sixty two years old. She’s old, missing teeth, dressed in rags, and then she starts to move. And something happens to me in the carriage of her arm – this small, but unmistakable elegance. You catch this smirk on her face and suddenly you’re not looking at a broken old woman, you’re looking at the most famous dancer in France, the muse. That’s the moment her legend became tangible to me. Her life is the epitome of the rags-to-riches-to-rags arc and her story sounds so unbelievable, but watching her move, decades past her prime, in the mud outside her caravan, made it raw in a way no photograph or painting quite had. She wasn’t performing nostalgia for the camera, film was so new there wasn’t any expectation of how to even perform for film. She was just being, deep in her bones, exactly who she’d always been. That’s the woman I knew I could feel in my own body on stage.

2. The show begins in 1928, with Louise living in La Zone — the part of Paris where the city hid what it didn’t want to see. What drew you to that late‑life vantage point rather than the glittering Moulin Rouge years? What does starting at the end allow you to reveal?

From the moment I saw that Lacombe footage, I knew the show had to bookend there. It felt like the only place to start and end. So much of what I’m telling in this piece is about how Louise was documented endlessly by other people and never once recognized for her own talent, her own creation, except as a footnote, a subject for men to paint and photograph and write about, right up to the last months of her life. There’s something almost unbearably poetic about that: being filmed to the very end and still never truly seen. Starting there, in Montmartre, blocks away from the Moulin Rouge where she was once the biggest star in France and was now selling peanuts to get by, gives the whole piece a kind of sad “I bet you’re wondering how I got here” jumping off point. And when we go all the way back and end up there again, I think it feels so satisfying.

3. Louise was painted by Renoir, immortalised by Toulouse‑Lautrec, photographed, mythologised, and endlessly consumed — yet her own voice was never recorded. How do you approach giving voice to someone history refused to hear?

She wasn’t entirely silent, that’s the incredible thing. There are fragments: an interview here, a remembered line there, diary pages, moments where her own words slipped through the cracks of everyone else’s reporting. And her wit and bite were epic, even by today’s standards. She really did yell out to the Prince of Wales in the middle of the Moulin Rouge “Hey Wales, you buying the champagne or are you just here waiting for your mother?” I’m obsessed. I built the show out from those fragments like scaffolding. Then of course, so much of her record was made into scandal and exaggeration, so we don’t always know what is real. So, of course I made artistic (and editing) choices, but they’re never careless ones. Everything I present in the show is built on extensive research into who she was, what she survived, how she moved through the world. I’m not inventing someone, I’m standing in for someone I have come to care for deeply, using her own documented fragments as my compass.

4. Your work blends projection, archival media, dance, and direct address. When you’re reconstructing a life that’s been fragmented by other people’s gazes, how do you decide what belongs to Louise and what belongs to the world that used her?

The projection is meant to do the work of anchoring us in time and place, using all the actual documented paintings, photographs, and posters people might already half-recognize. Those images do the work of a thousand words, or ten thousand dollars of set design (!), in about two seconds. That’s evidence of this wild life lived and what the world saw and made of her.

The sound design is where the emotional weight lives. We hear the music she remembers in her own head, propelling her dance. And we hear the men in her life, Renoir, Zidler, Lacombe, as disembodied voices, cutting in, directing her, deciding things about her. That disembodiment is deliberate, it’s their force and influence without a face or body, just power acting on her from outside.

But you’ll notice the important women in her life, (her sister, her lover) are never disembodied voices. They live in her own body, in memory, because they were never outside her the way the men were. They’re not haunting her from a projection or a speaker. They’re still with her, held close, because that’s where love lives when everything else about you has been documented, torn apart for profit or taken away.

5. La Goulue’s stage persona was famously audacious — high kicks, hat‑flicking, drinking from patrons’ glasses (where it is said she derived her name, ‘The Gluttion’ from), teasing the crowd. How much of that bravado do you bring into the show, and how much do you strip away to reveal the person underneath?

I lean hard into exactly these things. Her bravado is real and one of the most documented, factual things about her. And she earned every ounce of it. What I try to strip away is the assumption that bravado and fear can’t exist at the same time. I don’t play her struggle as a betrayal of her audacity, I play them as the same muscle flexed in opposite directions. She can flick a duke’s hat off his head with her high kick and simultaneously be quietly terrified that someone younger and prettier is already lined up to replace her. Both things are true in the show, moments apart. I don’t need to dial down the swagger to find the person underneath, the swagger is just one layer of a truly complicated woman. The true challenge is trying to show all that in a sharp 50 minutes!

6. Louise loved women and men and champagne and life with equal ferocity. Do you see her as a figure of queer joy, queer tragedy, or something more complicated — a woman whose appetites were both her liberation and her undoing?

Honestly, it’s complicated, and I’m still sitting with that complication rather than resolving it. She hid her relationships with women, but looking at it through a contemporary lens, that wasn’t shame in the way we’d think of it now, it was survival. Her income depended on men. Her safety depended on being legible to them as available. Hiding her female lovers wasn’t erasure imposed from outside, it was a choice she made to protect the very fame and money that kept her alive.

But other people absolutely wanted to profit off her queerness when it suited them;  Zidler putting that painting of her and Marie up, Toulouse capturing what she couldn’t (or wouldn’t) say out loud. She never got to control that either. She’d have been the one left holding the scandal if it went wrong, not them.

A lot of my work explores queer joy, taking classic texts and stories and placing them in queer context. But this one is harder, because it’s not fiction and it doesn’t resolve that way. I don’t think this is a story of queer joy. I think it’s a story of a woman who loved fiercely and still had to calculate, every single day, what that love might cost her. I’m not sure there’s a tidy ending here for her and Marie, and I’m not going to manufacture one just because it would feel better to tell.

7. You’ve had three sold‑out Toronto Fringe productions and a background in burlesque, dance, and visual art. Where does Louise: The Last Dance sit within your artistic evolution? Does it feel like a culmination, a departure, or a new beginning?

This feels like a new chapter, more than a culmination or departure. Almost everything I’ve made before this has been big ensemble work, spectacle, dance, song, burlesque, a whole cast of talented people to lean on and hide inside. This is the first time it’s just me, alone, on stage, for fifty minutes. It’s terrifying! There’s nowhere to hide when it’s just me, telling my little story, no ‘somebody else’s striptease number’ to carry the room while I catch my breath.

But stripping away (ha!) all those crutches has made me a stronger, more confident creator than any of the bigger shows did. When you can’t rely on spectacle, you have to trust the writing, the performance, the genuine meaningfulness of the story. You have to trust yourself. I don’t think I could have made this show five years ago. I needed everything I learned building those ensemble pieces just to have the nerve to stand up here alone.

8. Louise’s story raises a sharp question: who gets to tell their own story, and who gets rewritten by others? In making this piece, did you find parallels between Louise’s era and the way women and queer artists are framed today?

Oh, absolutely, one hundred percent, this piece is meant to evoke how we continue to treat women artists. The media has never stopped loving setting women up just to tear them down. Women artists get cast as bitchy, crazy, difficult, emotional wrecks, while their male counterparts get called artistic geniuses for the exact same behavior. The way we still erase women’s achievements is shameful, and it’s not new. Louise was possibly the first in an endless line of women lambasted publicly to the delight and profit of mostly men. There’s actually a huge nod to this in the show, but I don’t want to spoil it. Is it cheesy to say you’ll have to come see it for that reveal?

9. The Moulin Rouge era is often romanticised — all colour, spectacle, and bohemian glamour. What truths about that world surprised you most when you dug beneath the posters and the mythmaking?

I think how precarious it all was, even at the very top. The “muse” relationship with those painters was far more transactional than the romantic legend suggests. A modeling session with Renoir’s circle paid ten to twenty-five francs, and a laundress at the time made roughly two francs a day. So a single afternoon sitting still, often nude, could be worth a week or more of scrubbing other people’s linens. The men got the immortality and she got a fraction of what her image was actually worth.

Even at her peak, none of it was stable. She was attacked by wolves and lions during her menagerie years and entered into marriages of convenience and safety. The whole ‘Belle Epoque’ era gets remembered as color and champagne, but underneath it was this woman – the most famous of the era – calculating constantly, how much of her body and safety she could afford to risk for the next franc.

10. Finally, if Louise Weber could step into Ivy Studio during your Fringe run and watch the show, what do you hope she’d recognise in your performance — and what do you hope she’d forgive?

Oh gosh, I’d like to think we’d go out afterward and share a cheap bottle of wine and absolutely cackle at how wrong I got it! But really, I hope with all my heart, that she’d love the gumption and the spirit of it all. I hope she’d recognise the refusal to make her sanitized and palatable. I didn’t sand down the drinking, the audacity, the mess, the contradictions, because I think she’d have hated a version of herself that was too easy to like. I hope she’d see a woman finally allowed to argue back.

As for forgiveness, there are places where I fully imagine her interior life: what she felt in a given moment, what she might have said to her lovers in private and what they said to her. I hope she’d forgive me those inventions, because I made every one of them in service of being truthful to her, never at her expense.This is a love letter to, and about, a complicated, messy woman. Not a scandalous headline. Not a poster in a giftshop. Just Louise.

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Desire, Delirium and Defiance: Hannah Ponturo Reimagines Strasbourg’s Dancing Plague

For 1518: The Dancing Plague,playwright‑director‑producer Hannah Ponturo doesn’t just revisit a medieval hysteria — she queers it from the inside out. At the centre of Strasbourg’s civic collapse she places Katherine and Anna, two women whose long‑fractured romance becomes the emotional pulse of a society losing its grip. Ponturo treats queerness not as an add‑on but as the lens through which the crisis sharpens: desire as defiance, intimacy as resistance, love as the one human truth that refuses to behave, even when the world is convulsing around it.

Her production moves between satire, tenderness, and outright absurdity, but the queer heart of the piece never wavers. In a story about bodies pushed past their limits, she insists on showing what happens when two people try to reclaim their humanity in a society determined to deny it. The result is a work that feels both ancient and urgently contemporary — a queer love story beating beneath the noise of mass panic, political failure, and the strange comfort of collective delirium. We asked her to tell us more…

 

1. What does it mean to centre a queer love story between Katherine and Anna in the middle of a medieval mass‑hysteria crisis — is love the antidote, or just another form of delirium?

Neither. Love is a human need but it can’t save us from either ourselves or outside forces.

2. Why does a 500‑year‑old dancing plague feel more recognisable than anything we lived through in 2020?

Writing this piece post covid allowed me to accidentally draw parallels without initially intending to. Once it was clear, I wanted to channel Arthur Miller a la The Crucible and write about a historical crisis that was really about a modern event.

3. The clergy and city authorities scramble to contain the outbreak — is the real satire aimed at how power behaves when it loses control?

Yes, the clergy and city authorities get a hard beating from me throughout the show. Ultimately people who hold power are just people and during a crisis it’s very difficult to make the decision that will be deemed “right” in hindsight. Nevertheless some choices were so obviously wrong in the moment.

4. What’s the moment where the audience realises the comedy is getting uncomfortably close to our own recent chaos?

It sneaks up on you naturally until you start to realize that one plague is not so different from the other.

5. Does the play treat hysteria as a disease, or as something society manufactures when it can’t face the truth?

A little bit of both. The characters within the play truly believe that it’s a disease while I hope to portray that it’s the latter.

6. Katherine and Anna’s “long‑fractured romance” reignites while Strasbourg collapses — is queer love the rebellion here?

Queer love and fighting for one’s humanity is the rebellion.

7. How much of the dancing is pure comedy, and how much is a metaphor for people being pushed past their limits?

There’s only a small portion of the dancing that’s actually comedy. Our choreographer, Sydney Diamond, has created a language for the dancing sickness using the four elements: air, fire, water, earth. At first the dancing is air. These people are living in an enormously oppressive society and being able to dance feels good. Then, it becomes fire and the energy is full of sparks until we get to water and it becomes heavy. Ultimately earth is our destination before death.

8. What’s the most outrageous moment in the show that audiences absolutely won’t see coming?

Come and see!

9. How does the production balance the absurdity of people dancing themselves to death with the tenderness of a queer love story?

The incredible actors are able to balance this flawlessly: Britney Shields, Nicole Souza, Ryabrae Ngaida, Tallulah Jones, Gilberto Ortiz, Anne Marie Howard, and Don Berman.

10. Does the play suggest that crises bring people together, or that they expose what was broken all along?

Perhaps both. I’m sorry for being so Switzerland in this interview but I really do believe that there’s not just one answer to anything (except math, which I’m bad at).

11. What single image from the show captures both the comedy and the horror of the dancing plague?

Our logo, designed by Max DiRado, is the perfect image to describe our show. It’s a modern girl twerking with the medieval doctor plague mask on. I LOVE it.

12. If the dancing plague happened today, would it start on TikTok — or would TikTok just monetise it?

I think both. Today, anything that can be monetized will be.

13. How does the show use satire to talk about modern crises without ever naming them outright?

Bad government, heightened emotions, and incorrect medical advice are sadly timeless.

14. What do you hope queer audiences take from Katherine and Anna’s story that straight audiences might miss?

There’s a raw vulnerability to their love that I hope everyone can see, relate to, and experience either now, in the future, or in the past.

15. Why does a medieval dance‑till‑you‑drop epidemic feel like the perfect metaphor for the way we cope with uncertainty now?

The Dancing Plague is inherently silly and disarming so I hope to use this as a way to bring people in before getting to the subjects that may be less palatable.

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Chained, Charged and Completely Exposed: Joseph N. Alberts on Padlocked!

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Some Fringe shows toy with constraint; Padlocked! builds an entire world out of it. The premise is disarmingly simple — one man, one bedroom, one set of chains — but what unfolds is a sharp, funny, unexpectedly revealing hour of theatre. At the centre of it all is Joseph N. Alberts, the actor playing Guy, who spends the entire performance padlocked in place. No shifting, no pacing, no physical escape. Every interruption, every rising panic, every emotional crack has to be played from a single fixed position, which somehow makes the chaos around him feel even more intimate.

 

  1. The entire play traps Guy in one physical position — chained, padlocked, unable to escape. What did you discover about the character by being literally stuck in place?
What I loved finding out about this character was how his occasionally waspish sense of humour ended up being a defence for quite a vulnerable core. He has some longstanding things about himself that he has never come to terms with. Being stuck in the one place means that he can’t escape from confronting those issues, or at least someone telling him some home truths, so how he deals with that is very interesting to play. He can still very much go on a journey of character even though he is not actually moving.
  1. The show blends kink with everyday life in a way that’s funny but also revealing. What part of Guy’s real‑world responsibilities felt most relatable to you?
I think the amount of (metaphorical) plate spinning and how we effectively act differently according to the different people around us in our lives, which is very much in the play, has really struck me. I’m sure all of us have things with family, work, neighbours and, dare I say it, potential lovers that we have to deal with, but luckily they might be spread over a week rather than within one hour in one afternoon.
  1. There’s a vulnerability in being restrained that goes beyond comedy. How did you approach that emotional layer without losing the humour?
I think realising the humour (of situation, and of Guy’s reactions and cynical comments) and the emotion are all wrapped as different facets of the same character. Keeping it emotionally honest, but also witty.
  1. The interruptions Guy faces — family, work, neighbours, even Alexa — are relentless. Which moment of escalating chaos is your favourite to perform?
There is a sequence where Guy needs to obtain a password to open a document for a work colleague he is on the phone to, and he realises he very much can’t get hold of it in the usual way… I think that is my favourite to perform.
  1. The press release hints that the story draws from real experiences. How much of Guy’s panic, desire, or denial feels personally familiar?
Luckily not the panic! The hopefulness of meeting one’s beau on Grindr and the increasing realisation that things may not work out as envisaged does feel very familiar. As is the case for wanting certain areas of your life not to overlap with other areas of your life.
  1. Fabio is alluring but elusive. What do you think Guy is really looking for in him — fantasy, escape, validation, or something else entirely?
I think Guy is ultimately looking for someone with an understanding of who he is and what his sexual desires are (wanting someone else to take control for a bit), but the fact that Fabio is so sexy is a definite bonus! The situation Guy is hoping for is its own escape, I’d say.
  1. The show is sex‑positive but also life‑negative, as the press release puts it. How do you balance those two tones on stage?
I would say our approach is to be unapologetic about the adult parts of the show and the amount of flesh on display for Guy’s kink, but also to find an honesty about the difficulties of life that come into the story, with relatively few people Guy feels he can be honest to.
  1. What’s the biggest challenge of performing a role where the comedy depends on timing, physical restriction, and rising tension?
It’s a blend of several things. Keeping the pace up, but keeping the contrasts between how he talks to the different people in his life. And making sure those one-sided phone conversations sound realistic in their timing. For some reason, remembering what to say between the conversations is proving harder than remembering the conversations themselves!
  1. If audiences come in expecting pure farce, what deeper truth do you hope they walk away with?
Perhaps the deeper truth that the chains may be metaphoric as well as literal. Or maybe that we all have different areas of our personalities, with triumphs and frustrations. Maybe being honest about personal things – or even kinks – might be the way ahead.
  1. And finally — what’s the part of Guy you’re most protective of, the thing you hope audiences really understand about him?
I love the realisation that he can change, even within an hour in his own bedroom. Despite his cynicism, he remains optimistic for as long as he can. I hope that audiences will find the way I portray the character engaging, even though he definitely has his flaws. He is wittier than I am, but I think he has a reason for that wit.
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2 Guys, 3 Drams — Counter Culture UK Interview

Blues, whisky, and a room full of willing conspirators — few Fringe shows blend music, storytelling and guided tasting with the swagger and charm of 2 Guys, 3 Drams. Now entering their fourth consecutive Edinburgh run, Felipe and Paul return with a fresh line‑up of whiskies, a new sponsor in InchDairnie, and the same mission as ever: to turn a room of strangers into one merry, whisky‑swigging organism. Counter Culture asked the duo to talk drams, blues, audience alchemy, and why their show title is technically a lie…

You describe the show as “more than a concert and more than a tasting.” What’s the moment where those two worlds collide most perfectly on stage?

Honestly, the moment we start playing the first song of the show, and we bring out the first whisky to serve our audience. It’s an unusual format, so this is the point where I think everyone realises together “oh, they’re DEFINITELY serving whisky too” and is immediately ready to go along with whatever we have planned for them.

Felipe Schrieberg and Paul Archibald

Three whiskies in an hour is a bold structure. How do you choose which drams make the cut each year?

We reach out to different brands or distilleries who have whisky that we really like, and then curate the selection of available whiskies for the show. We prefer to have something lighter to start, spicier and more robust or unusual second, and preferably something quite heavy or peated last. We regularly rotate the selection throughout the run.

Blues and whisky both have deep cultural roots. What’s the connection between them that keeps pulling you back?

In blues, you rarely are playing more than three chords with relatively simple grooves. In Scotch malt whisky, you’ve just got three ingredients to work with. And yet, there’s infinite ways to prepare and combine those elements, meaning that you end up with so much character, flavour, and variety across both. I think this is why they’re such a good pairing.

You’ve had three consecutive sell‑out years. What’s the biggest change you’ve made to the show for 2026?

We don’t actually follow a script. We block the show out in modular segments that encourage audience interaction, provide some kind of educational fact about the world of whisky, or feature tricks on sounding clever whenever you’re drinking whisky. We’re constantly coming up with new segments to add, or swapping different ones in and out with each show. It’ll be the same this year. The whiskies we’re working with are completely different as well.

InchDairnie is sponsoring the run — how does working with a new‑wave distillery influence the tasting experience?

InchDairnie is one of nine sponsors, but the only one involved for a full run, and we’ll be serving their fascinating rye whisky every night. The team really gets what our show is about and what we want to do. In their case, it is truly unusual to try a Scottish rye whisky (under Scottish law, it is technically a “grain whisky”), so this is a chance to showcase some truly unique aromas and flavours to our crowd. Even most hardcore Scotch geeks won’t have tried something like this before.

Felipe, you’ve said audiences will “leave knowing how to sound clever about whisky.” What’s the one whisky fact people always get wrong?

I don’t know about “getting wrong,” but we like to joke that our show title is a lie. In old‑school Scottish bar‑speak, a dram actually refers to a double measure whereas a nip refers to a single measure. Over the years, the word “dram” has become a catch‑all for any measure that everyone uses, even the whisky industry. Since we’re actually serving single measures at the show, a more appropriate title for the show is 2 Guys, 3 Nips

The show mixes humour, education, and live music. What’s the hardest part of keeping all three elements in balance?

I would say being able to calibrate the performance to the energy of the room. It means meeting the audience where they are, and then seeing where you can go together.

It’s quite special when we can make the audience turn into one merry whisky‑swigging organism over the course of the show. We employ a whole suite of tricks to do it, and blending together music, education and humour actually gives us many useful tools to work with to reach our goal.

Blues is often about storytelling. Whisky is too. What’s the best story behind one of the drams you’re serving this year?

InchDairnie is a really interesting one — they really are a truly groundbreaking distillery with how they produce their whisky, and serving a rye that’s normally associated with the USA and Canada is really fun. It helps break the usual preconceptions people have about whisky and what it should “be.”

We’re also serving a blended whisky called Ardray, which is actually a collaboration between Beam Suntory’s top Scotch whisky master blender and the legendary Japanese whisky blender Shinji Fukuyo. It’s a great argument as to why you should never see blends as inferior.

You’ve played everywhere from tasting rooms to festival stages. What makes the Fringe audience different?

For us, it’s more the nature of doing a theatre show. Performing at the Fringe is a format that makes us tighten up our usual chaos into something more formal and structured. We actually like this — we think it’s vitally important as musicians to be performing in different contexts. It means you stay present, take nothing for granted, and learn how to connect with your audience no matter the situation. Putting together a Fringe show is a different way to explore making meaningful connections through music and whisky.

After years of performing this show, what’s the most surprising reaction you’ve ever had from someone tasting whisky for the first time?

Not too surprising, but we always give ourselves a little pat on the back when we get someone who says they thought they didn’t like whisky until they came to our show and realised that they actually do like whisky after all!

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Juliette Burton Rewrites the Rules in Villain Era

Juliette Burton. Photo: Steve Ullathorne

What’s striking about Villain Era is how sharply it understands the women it’s speaking to — and the ones it’s speaking for. Juliette Burton, the writer and performer behind the show, doesn’t approach villainy as a gimmick or a costume; she treats it as a lens, a challenge, and sometimes a liberation. Her work has always wrestled with identity, power, and the stories women are handed, but here she pushes further, pulling apart the myths that shape us and the rules we’re expected to obey.

Talking with Juliette, you feel that mix of mischief and seriousness immediately. She’s funny, sharp, and unafraid to sit with the uncomfortable bits — the rage, the conditioning, the cultural policing — and then flip them into something joyful, defiant, and deeply human. Villain Era isn’t just a show; it’s a reclamation. And Juliette is the one steering it, inviting audiences into a world where women get to be complex, loud, powerful, silly, sexy, nerdy, and unapologetically themselves. Find out more at the Fringe website.

 Villainous Women — Fiction’s “bad girls” often carry the truths polite society can’t handle. Which villainess taught you the most about power, and what did she give you that the so‑called heroines never could?

Coming to the show you will step into the world of fictional villainous and morally grey women including: Poison Ivy, Harley Quinn, Catwoman, Rogue, Emma Frost, Goblin Queen, witches like Agatha Harkness or Scarlet Witch, Greek Goddesses, and Yennefer of Vengerberg.

She starts life powerless, unwanted and dismissed, then stops trying to be “good” and starts owning who she is. That was a revelation for me. Heroines are often rewarded for being selfless; villainesses are punished for being powerful.

Rogue is the other key one for me. My favourite comic book character began as a villain in the comic books in the 1980s. In the X-Men, she begins as a villain who absorbs the power and psyche of Carol Danvers aka Captain Marvel aka the most powerful Avenger and is terrified she can’t contain it. That fear that embracing your power might make you dangerous, felt familiar to me. Now I realise it only makes you dangerous who people who benefit from you being weak or controlled.

Fearing for her sanity Rogue turned to Professor Xavier for help. When I feared for my own sanity, I too turned to a bald man – Bill Bailey. He inspired me to get into stand up and just like Rogue became a leader in the XMen I also lead people… astray.

One of the things comic book villains and heroes like the XMen taught me is that power isn’t zero-sum. My power doesn’t diminish anyone else’s, it can highlight and sharpen it. The real shift happens when we stop seeing each other’s strength as a threat, and start learning how to exist alongside it in harmony.

If we can do that – personally, culturally, collectively – we don’t just survive each other’s differences but we become stronger because of them. That feels, to me, like the most hopeful “Villain Era” there could be.

Then there are witches like Agatha Harkness and Wanda Maximoff, who show that women’s power often grows with age which is exactly why we’re encouraged to disappear as we get older. Not me. I’m determined to get louder, prouder and embrace my power.

And Dark Phoenix, who taught me that the problem isn’t our innate power itself, but other people’s inability to cope with it.

It’s not even a case of ‘step into your power’ – we always had it. But now, we’re remembering our power and becoming it.

 

• Good Girl Conditioning — You describe yourself as a former “good girl”. What’s the most insidious part of that conditioning that you had to unlearn to step into your Villain Era?

The most insidious part of “good girl” conditioning is how deeply it ties identity, worth and safety to being agreeable, pleasing and non-disruptive. I learnt early that taking up space, having opinions, changing my body or challenging other people all come with social punishment. So I ended up chasing an impossible version of myself that was never meant to be achievable.

And even when I thought I’d attained it, I wasn’t allowed to veer from it even for a moment. You’re punished if you veer off the course that’s set and you’re punished if you achieve it – just look at women in the spotlight, allowed a brief stint there before they’re torn down one way or another.

And I think a lot of those “goals” are deliberately unattainable, set by systems and industries that profit from you feeling like you’re not enough. Comedy helped me unpick that, because it isn’t built on perfection or pleasing everyone. It’s built on truth, risk and joy. And there’s very little profit in joy, just freedom.

 

• Nerd Culture Politics — Nerd culture loves a redemption arc but fears female rage. How much of Villain Era is you reclaiming a space that was never built with women in mind?

Nerd culture has often been gatekept by people who frame it as “us vs them”, scarcity vs belonging, and who can be very attached to clear binaries of good and bad. It’s interesting, because on the surface nerd culture may love a redemption arc… but underneath that is the question: why do we need redemption at all and who decided someone was “beyond it” in the first place?

A lot of nerd storytelling, especially in comics, is basically modern mythology. The X-Men are essentially Greek gods in cool jackets. They constantly wrestle with identity, power and belonging, and just like ancient gods and goddesses we can turn to each of them to help us through an aspect of being human that we might be wrestling with at any given time in our lives. And I think the most compelling stories are the ones where hero and villain aren’t fixed states, but internal struggles.

The idea that nerd culture “fears female rage” is partly true in some spaces, but not all. I’ve also seen it be one of the few places and people that properly welcome, encourage and embrace powerful, complex women – women who are allowed to be messy, angry, moral, immoral, all of it.

What fascinates me most is the idea that society has to exist as if there’s a “them versus us”, eg men versus women, or nerds versus jocks, or old fans versus new fans, or an old franchise version versus a new franchise version/spinoff. It’s bizarre to me considering that so much of comic books and nerd culture is supposedly about wrestling with unity. The X-Men wrestle with the idea that they are inherently born different and so, do they use their powers to help protect those who would seek to persecute them? Or is tolerance extinction? For either ‘them’ or ‘us’?

The very fact that the nerd culture communities are aware of these conversations makes me feel safer in nerd culture than in other spaces in society right now, purely because we’re having those conversations, albeit via the prism of comic book lore.

All my shows are me reclaiming space… being on stage an inviting people into my world for an hour is my favourite place to be – I get to set the tone and invite people in. No gatekeeping, all inclusive… I wish that meant your food and drink was free but sadly just the joy.

 

• Sexy vs Silly — Your show promises to be “very silly, very sexy, incredibly nerdy”. Where do you think humour and sexuality meet, and why do British audiences still get twitchy when women mix the two?

Humour and sexuality have always been intertwined for me, they’re both about timing, truth, and not taking yourself too seriously. It still makes me laugh that when I came out as queer, my friends said, “we thought you already knew.” Apparently I was the last to know.

I also think we often confuse sexuality with sensuality and eroticism, and then immediately panic about what women are “allowed” to be in public. There’s still discomfort—particularly in British culture around openly sexual women who are also funny, clever, nerdy, or self-aware. It can disrupt the very tidy Madonna/whore boxes people would prefer to keep us in.

Adding in ‘funny’ confuses those who benefit from forcing women into polarised identities because humour empowers, laughter unites and brings us together, it breaks down pretty little lies about who we are, who we can be and what our roles are.

But the truth is women aren’t one thing. We’re allowed to be silly and sexy and ridiculous and powerful all at once. And if that makes people twitchy, I think that says more about their conditioning than it does about us.

 

• Rage as Fuel — You’re tackling inequality, bad sex lives, and the cultural policing of women’s behaviour. What role does anger play in your writing — ignition, compass, or something more dangerous?

Anger is definitely the ignition point for my writing. If something makes me angry, it usually means there’s a crack in the system somewhere and that’s where the comedy lives. Big things, small things, bad sex, inequality, cultural policing of women’s behaviour… it all starts with that moment of “hang on, why is this just normal?”

I used to be quite afraid of my anger. Therapy taught me that holding onto it was like holding hot stones except the only person getting burned was me. And that’s still true… if you just sit in resentment. But anger handled properly isn’t destruction, it’s information. It tells you what matters, what’s wrong, and what needs changing.

I’m angry about inequality, I’m angry about the amount of mediocre sex women are expected to quietly accept, and I’m very angry about how tightly women’s behaviour is still policed. But I don’t think anger is my compass, that’s a steadier commitment to belief we can do better. Anger is the spark, not the map.

Anger only becomes dangerous when it’s misused to divide people or distract from where the real power sits. In comedy, I try to aim it somewhere more useful: at the absurdity of the rules themselves. And ideally, we get to laugh at them while they fall apart.

 

• Queerness and Power — The press release hints at queerness as part of the journey. How does stepping into a “villain” identity open up new ways of talking about desire and identity?

When you’re raised in a culture where female desire is suppressed – whether that’s appetite, sexuality, difference, or queerness – it can start to feel like anything outside the “acceptable” script is automatically wrong. Even just wanting too much, or wanting differently, can get framed as selfish or even villainous.

So stepping into a “villain” identity becomes strangely freeing. It allows you to question who decided the rules in the first place, and why honesty about desire has to be punished. Whether that’s queerness, polyamory, or just forms of attraction and romance that don’t fit neatly into a norm, it all gets labelled as deviation from a story someone else wrote.

But “villainy” is really just perspective. It’s narrative. Good and bad aren’t fixed states – they’re labels we’ve inherited. And once you start pulling at that thread, the whole idea of what’s “normal” or “acceptable” starts to flip upside down in an exciting and liberating way.

 

• Fantasy Armour — You mention armour made of “hard truths, high fantasy and hilarious punchlines”. What’s the piece of metaphorical armour you didn’t realise you needed until you wrote this show?

Every woman needs a sword right now. That’s just a fact. But since actual armour isn’t exactly socially acceptable in most day-to-day situations, I think what I didn’t realise I needed was a full emotional breastplate – something that lets you walk into the world slightly more protected, but still very much a woman in power.

Or, you know… just better boundaries and less apologising. That too.

 

• Nerdgasms — You promise “live nerdgasms”. For the uninitiated: what exactly constitutes a nerdgasm, and how do you engineer one onstage without breaking Fringe fire regulations?

A nerdgasm is a kind of euphoric nerd peak—the tingle of recognition, like Spidey sense kicking in, when you feel completely seen by others who accept you, get you, understand your niche references, share your passions – whether that be for a fandom, for a passion or for challenging the status quo. It’s that moment of shared joy when a niche detail suddenly becomes a communal experience.

A nerdgasm happens when fandom, humour, sexuality and storytelling all collide in one room. Because the best nerdgasms aren’t solo, they’re collective. Multiple nerdgasms, if you will.

This cannot be engineered. A nerdgasm in the wild can only happen naturally, organically and only if we give ourselves permission to feel safe and lean in together. All I can do is create the conditions: honesty, play, a bit of chaos and a lot of love and respect. The rest is chemistry.

And if the fire alarm goes, well, we’ve clearly made the show incredibly hot.

 

 

• Villain Era Ethics — Every villain thinks they’re the hero of their own story. What’s the ethical line you refuse to cross, even in your Villain Era?

You can be a baddie, just don’t be a dick.

My “Villain Era” reign holds no cruelty or destruction. Just integrity, honesty, agency and refusing to shrink myself to make other people comfortable.

I’ve been the villain in other people’s stories for long enough that I’ve stopped trying to to be the “hero”. Instead, I’m leaning into the villain they’ve already decided I am. At least I look good in black. That doesn’t mean I wish them harm, I just wish them well while I live my life in the fullest, darkest, most powerful way possible. When you embrace your shadow self, turns out the team up is a power up.

That, to me, is the ethical line: don’t lose your humanity while you’re realising your power.

 

• Cultural Rebellion — Counter Culture readers love a rebellion. Do you see Villain Era as a personal metamorphosis, a cultural protest, or a gleeful act of mischief aimed at the patriarchy?

Villain Era is all of the above and more. Just like a woman, this show is multifaceted and is many things all at once.

Villain Era is all of the above and more. Like most women, it refuses to be just one thing at a time.

It’s a personal metamorphosis, because it’s been shaped by unlearning who I was told to be.

It’s a cultural protest, because so much of what I’m talking about – gender, power, sexuality, identity – doesn’t exist outside of politics, whether we name it or not.

And it’s a gleeful act of mischief aimed at the patriarchy because sometimes the best response to absurd systems that seek to control us is to laugh at them.

But underneath all of that, Villain Era is joyful, silly and fun. It’s a reclamation. It’s permission for me and for the audience to take up space without asking nicely.

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The Quiet Power Behind Whale Fall: A Conversation with Bruna Longo

Bruna Longo

What hits you first about Whale Fall is its emotional clarity. Bruna Longo — the show’s writer, creator, and solo performer — speaks about the piece with a directness that makes its themes feel close to the skin. She’s not dealing in abstractions; she’s tracing grief, memory, and the strange beauty in collapse and renewal with a kind of steady, unforced honesty.

In this conversation, Bruna lays out the ideas driving the work and the experiences that shaped it. There’s no grandstanding, no over‑polish — just a clear sense of why Whale Fall exists and what she hopes it stirs in the audience. It’s a piece built on substance, and her reflections carry that same weight.

You can explore the production further on the Fringe listing.

 

1.              You’ve spoken about creating this piece in the aftermath of your father’s death. When grief becomes the raw material of a performance, does the stage feel like a refuge, a reckoning, or something stranger altogether?

I wasn’t setting out to make a play about my father’s death, or even one inspired by it. I started researching death because I was trying to understand what was happening to me, to face it, to face my grief. I am very, very nerdy. And at some point, it became very clear that my way of moving through life, of dealing with everything, is through theatre. As I say in the play, theatre is my religare, my non-religious form of spirituality. But I always want to make one thing clear: the show isn’t a therapeutic exercise about my mourning process. It’s the result of a genuine curiosity about death and grief that grew out of the research I began to help me navigate that experience. The play isn’t the process itself, it’s what came from it. So more than a refuge or a reckoning, the stage is a place of congregation, a place where we come together to share our humanity. And I think that’s what this process ultimately became for me.

2.              Western societies have a habit of sanitising death — hiding it behind curtains, euphemisms, and professionalised rituals. What convinced you that theatre could reopen that conversation without slipping into sentimentality or spectacle?

I think if we go back to how theatre was born, we already have the answer to that question. It’s a place where humanity gathers to see itself reflected. And theatre is so raw. Even when we try to make it more like film, with special effects or technology, it’s still fundamentally human. That’s what makes it so powerful and, for me, what makes it the perfect place to face our demons and our fears, to talk about them, and to bring them into the light.

3.              The original version of Whale Fall unfolded inside a functioning funeral chapel in São Paulo. How does relocating the work to St Cuthbert’s Church — with its own centuries of burial and memory — change the emotional temperature of the piece?

We perform in a historic chapel in São Paulo that dates back to 1912. So just the fact that the first recorded church on the site where St Cuthbert’s stands today dates from the 12th century is already incredible to me. Brazil was colonized by the Portuguese in 1500, although, of course, Indigenous peoples had been living there for thousands of years before that. But the Indigenous peoples of Brazil had very different cultures from civilizations like the Maya or the Aztec. They didn’t leave behind monumental stone architecture in the same way, so the oldest stone buildings we have are mostly from the Portuguese colonial period. I love history and architecture, and even though I’m certainly not a fan of colonization, whenever I visit historic buildings, I have a deep respect for the lives of the people who occupied those spaces before me. So performing in a place as ancient as St Cuthbert’s certainly adds another layer to the experience. You’re aware that so many people have passed through that space over so many centuries, carrying their own stories, their own joys, and their own grief. I think there’s something very beautiful about adding our story to that long continuum.

4.              You imagine your own death as a way of mourning yourself — an impossible act in life, but a potent one in theatre. What did that imaginative leap reveal to you that ordinary grief could not?

Imagining our own death, and really imagining the decomposition process, is actually a very Buddhist practice. I’m Buddhist, so it was something I always knew was done, but I never thought I’d actually be able to engage with it. I was afraid, as I think most of us are, to bring that image into my mind. This play is very much in the tradition of memento mori, an artistic tradition that goes back to the Middle Ages, where artists depicted death and mortality to remind us that we’re alive. The full idea is memento mori, memento vivere: remember you will die, remember to live. That’s what imagining my own death has helped me do. Imagining my own death reminds me every day that I am very much alive, and it makes me want to be fully alive until the very last microsecond I live.

5.              The show blends autobiography, anthropology, philosophy, and physical theatre. When you’re working across so many registers, how do you keep the ritualistic core of the piece intact?

I always like to go back to the original meaning of things. So, what is a ritual? It’s a set of gestures, words, and formalized actions with symbolic meaning, performed by or in front of a group of people. And when you think about it, theatre is exactly that. Theatre is a ritual. Whale Fall  have different layers to it. The dramaturgy is built from ethnographic and anthropological research, together with some autobiographical elements. Then there’s the language of the performance itself. The physicality draws on traditions of physical theatre and also inspirations from Japanese theatre, although they’re not the kind of references an audience would necessarily recognize while watching the show. And then there’s the staging. The decision to perform inside a chapel wasn’t just an aesthetic choice; it was part of creating a ritual space. The scenes are structured in a very ritualized way. Music plays a fundamental role, as it does in so many ritual traditions. Those are the bricks the piece is made of. So the performance isn’t recreating any specific ritual, but it borrows the grammar of ritual to create a shared experience where we can gather and reflect on mortality together.

6.              You’ve said that death is perhaps the last taboo in Western culture. Do you think audiences are genuinely ready to confront it, or are they still arriving with the same fear and avoidance you’re trying to unpick?

One of my masters, the director Eugenio Barba, once said in a rehearsal that there is no audience. There is only that one person, and then the next person, and the next, and the next. I’ve carried that with me ever since. So I try to meet each audience member wherever they are. I’ve spoken to people after the show who told me it genuinely shifted something for them, that it helped them look at death with a little more tranquility than they had before. And then, about a month ago, I got a DM on Instagram from someone who had seen the show months earlier. They wrote, “I loved the show, but being inside the chapel in the cemetery was a horrible experience for me because I’m terrified of death.” They spent the whole performance feeling anxious, and yet they were still grateful they came. And I think that’s wonderful. If that’s what the show brought up for that person, then that’s what it brought up. I’m not trying to lead people toward one specific conclusion or emotional response. The only thing I hope is that people begin to think about death as part of life, as something worth bringing to the dinner table, into our everyday conversations. Where that reflection takes them is completely beyond my control. There isn’t a right or wrong way to experience the piece.

7.              The São Paulo Showcase is bringing a wave of Brazilian work to Edinburgh this year. What feels distinctly Brazilian about Whale Fall, and what feels universal — something that belongs to anyone who has ever lost someone?

Death is a universal experience. Everybody dies in the end: spoiler alert! But culturally, we relate to death in many different ways. There are a lot of similarities across Western societies, especially in big cities and metropolitan areas, but every culture has its own temperament, its own rituals, and its own emotional relationship with death. Part of the research behind the show was also ethnographic. I became fascinated by the different ways cultures around the world care for their dead and make sense of loss. The performance brings some of those funeral rites into conversation with our own Western, capitalist, highly industrialized experience of death to remind us that the way we approach death isn’t universal, it’s cultural. And once we realize that, we can start asking whether the relationship we’ve built with death is really the one we want. So, of course, the show brings my own perspective: a Brazilian-Italian Latina woman from one of the biggest cities in the world. But underneath all those identities, I’m just another person who’s going to die and going to lose people I love. And that’s the one thing every audience member and I have in common.

8.              You’re performing 18 shows without a break at the Fringe. How do you protect your own emotional and physical boundaries when the work itself asks you to revisit grief night after night?

That’s a fantastic question. People have asked me before how I deal with talking about my grief and my father every week, month after month. But the truth is, it’s not really about my grief, and it’s not really about my father anymore. And that’s very important to me. As I said before, the research began because of my father’s death and my attempt to understand my own experience of mourning. But once I decided to turn that research into a performance, it stopped being about processing my grief and started being about sharing the curiosity that had grown out of it: my curiosity about death, grief, and ritual. During the research and rehearsal process, there were definitely moments when it was difficult to face some emotions. But once the show opened, something shifted. It became about celebrating life. So, for me, it’s actually a very joyful show. I know that sounds contradictory because it’s about death, but I don’t experience it as a sad piece. I don’t feel like I have to protect myself emotionally from performing it. Physically, though, that’s a different story. Eighteen performances in a row is a lot, and I’m no spring chicken anymore. So I’m trying to get as strong as I can before Edinburgh. It’s a demanding show for my voice because I sing throughout it, and it’s demanding on my body, especially my spine. During the run, my plan is to sleep well, eat well, take care of myself… and wait until it’s all over before I start celebrating.

9.              The press in Brazil described the piece as courageous, ritualistic, and among the year’s best. Does that kind of acclaim create pressure, or does it give you permission to push even further into the uncomfortable questions the show raises?

Honestly, I believe in acclaim as much as I believe in bad reviews. I try not to give either of them too much weight because I don’t think it’s particularly helpful or healthy. Of course, reviews and award nominations are fantastic for the business of show business. They help put bums on seats, they give the work credibility, and they make the show more visible, especially at the Fringe, where audiences have thousands of shows to choose from. That’s all incredibly valuable. But for me, as an artist, what really matters is what happens in the room, in that living moment. That’s theatre. Everything else is important, but it isn’t theatre itself.

10.           If an audience member walks out of St Cuthbert’s with one lingering thought — not a neat lesson, but a disturbance they can’t quite shake — what do you hope that thought is?

I want people to leave asking themselves: What kind of relationship do I want to have with death? There’s a Brazilian psychoanalyst, Rubem Alves, who wrote that instead of being something frightening or cruel, death can be a counselor. I love that. We already know we’re going to die: that part isn’t optional. So maybe, instead of trying to forget about death or push it away, we can let that awareness guide the way we choose to live. And that has very practical consequences too. When we allow ourselves to talk about death, we’re much more likely to take ownership of how we want to die. We can leave our wishes behind, have conversations with our loved ones and our doctors, think about palliative care or assisted dying if that is aligned with our values. These are conversations we tend to avoid because they’re uncomfortable, but they’re really conversations about autonomy.

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Family on the Brink: Next to Normal at the Edinburgh Fringe 2026

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Some shows arrive at the Fringe with hype; Next to Normal arrives with history. It’s a piece that has never sat quietly in the corner, never softened its edges, never pretended that mental illness or grief can be shaped into something tidy. Dominic Lewis seems acutely aware of that. When he talks about the Goodman family, he doesn’t reach for the usual theatrical shorthand. He talks about them the way you talk about people you’ve lived alongside — complicated, contradictory, trying their best, failing, trying again.

What struck us most is the seriousness of his intent. Not the heavy, self-important kind, but the grounded sort that comes from knowing the material can genuinely touch people who’ve lived versions of this story. Lewis isn’t interested in turning bipolar disorder into a plot engine or grief into a poetic flourish. He’s interested in the messy truth: the repetition, the avoidance, the love that curdles into fear, the care that becomes silence because nobody knows what else to do. His rehearsal room sounds like a place built with actual thought — not just emotional ambition, but practical care for performers who may be carrying their own histories into the work.

And then there’s the wider frame. The partnerships with Bipolar Scotland and Held In Our Hearts aren’t window dressing. They’re part of a deliberate attempt to make sure the production doesn’t just stir something up and leave audiences to deal with it alone. Lewis talks about community theatre not as a consolation prize but as a space where proximity matters — where the people making the work are part of the same streets, the same conversations, the same quiet crises as the people watching it.

As Next to Normal heads into the Edinburgh Fringe 2026, this interview feels less like a preview and more like an invitation to look again at what we call “care,” what families are expected to carry, and what healing might mean when truth finally stops being the thing everyone tiptoes around. It’s not neat. It’s not meant to be. But it feels, unmistakably, necessary.

Next to Normal has always been a lightning rod for conversations about mental health. What responsibilities did you feel taking on a story that deals so directly with bipolar disorder, medical treatment and the long shadow of loss, and how did you avoid slipping into cliché or sentimentality?

The responsibility felt enormous, to be honest. Next to Normal is not a show where mental health can be treated as a dramatic device, or where grief can be reduced to something neat, poetic or conveniently resolved by the end of the evening. It asks much more of everyone involved.

The first responsibility was to remember that although the Goodman family are fictional, the experiences around them are not. Bipolar disorder, trauma, complicated grief, medical treatment, family breakdown, emotional avoidance and survival are all things that many audience members will understand personally, either through their own lives or through someone they love. That means the work has to be truthful without becoming exploitative, detailed without becoming clinical, and emotionally open without pushing the audience into a kind of forced sentimentality.

For me, avoiding cliché meant resisting any version of Diana that becomes simply “the ill woman”, “the difficult mother” or “the tragic victim”. She is all sorts of things at once: funny, intelligent, frightened, loving, furious, avoidant, lucid, unwell, self-aware and trapped. Equally, Dan cannot just be “the long-suffering husband”, and Natalie cannot just be “the neglected daughter”. The danger with a show like this is that people become symbols. We have tried to keep pulling them back into being people.

In rehearsal, that has meant constantly asking: what is this person trying to do in this moment? What are they protecting? What truth are they avoiding? Where is the love, even when the behaviour is damaging? That keeps the story human. It stops the production from presenting mental illness as spectacle or grief as a beautiful sadness. Grief is not beautiful when you are inside it. It can be disorientating, repetitive, irrational, boring, exhausting and sometimes even absurd. The show understands that, and we have tried to honour that complexity.

The other big thing was not to make the production anti-treatment, anti-medication or anti-clinical care. That would be a misreading, and frankly it would be irresponsible. The show is much more interesting than that. It asks what happens when treatment exists but care becomes fragmented, when someone’s symptoms are addressed but their personhood is not always fully seen, and when a family tries to survive through silence rather than truth. That nuance is where the production lives.

The press release emphasises “emotional truth, care, accessibility and audience signposting.” How do you translate those values into practical rehearsal-room decisions, especially when working with performers who may have lived experience of the themes?

Those values only matter if they change behaviour in the room. It is easy to put words like care and accessibility in a press release. The real question is whether they affect the process.

Practically, we have tried to build a rehearsal room where people understand that the work can be emotionally demanding, but that nobody is expected to damage themselves in order to make it powerful. I am very clear that acting trauma is not the same as re-living trauma. We are not asking performers to mine their own pain for the sake of a scene. We are asking them to build characters with clarity, technique, empathy and rigour.

That means being specific. If a scene is difficult, we do not just say “make it more emotional”. We look at the action, the relationship, the rhythm, the breath, the interruption, the avoidance, the lyric and the silence. Often the most truthful moments are not the ones where someone pushes hardest.

Care also means giving people the information they need. We talk openly about the content of the show, the pressure points in the material, and what each rehearsal is likely to involve. We have tried to create a culture where people can say if something needs to be handled differently, without it becoming dramatic or awkward. That is particularly important when working on material that may overlap with lived experience. You cannot always know what someone is carrying into the room, so the room has to be built with that possibility in mind.

Accessibility and signposting are part of the same principle. We know the show may land very personally for some audience members, so we are thinking about what happens before and after the performance, not just during it. That includes clear content guidance, programme information, and working with organisations who understand these themes in a much deeper and more specialist way than we do. We cannot control how every person will receive the show, but we can take responsibility for how we frame it, how we support it, and how seriously we treat the conversations it may open up.

Diana’s story is often framed as a critique of the medicalisation of distress. How does your production navigate the tension between clinical intervention and the human need for connection, agency and dignity?

The important thing for me is that the production does not present those things as opposites. Clinical intervention and human connection should not be enemies. In the best circumstances, they should support one another.

What Next to Normal interrogates is what happens when care becomes too narrow. Diana is treated, but she is not always fully heard. Her symptoms are examined, but the emotional architecture of her life, her grief, her family and her sense of self cannot be solved by diagnosis alone. That does not mean diagnosis or medication are wrong. It means they are not the whole story.

The production tries to hold that tension without simplifying it. Diana needs help. The family needs help. Dan needs help. Natalie needs help. But help that removes agency, flattens identity or ignores the human context can become another kind of harm, even when it is well-intentioned.

Dignity has become a key word for us. Diana is sometimes chaotic, sometimes evasive, sometimes deeply unwell, but she must never lose her dignity in the eyes of the production. We are not inviting the audience to observe her from a distance. We are asking them to sit with the discomfort of how difficult it is to care for someone, how difficult it is to be cared for, and how easily love can become control when people are frightened.

The show is also very honest about the limits of love. Connection matters, but love alone cannot treat a serious mental health condition. At the same time, treatment without connection can leave someone feeling like a case rather than a person. That is the central tension for me. Diana needs care that sees her whole life, not just her crisis.

Bare Productions is collaborating with Bipolar Scotland and Held In Our Hearts. What does meaningful partnership look like in practice, and how do you ensure it’s more than a badge of good intentions?

For us, meaningful partnership starts with humility. We are a theatre company. We are not a mental health charity, a bereavement charity or a clinical service. So if we are making work that touches these areas, we have a responsibility to connect with people and organisations who live in that work every day.

The partnerships with Bipolar Scotland and Held In Our Hearts are not there to decorate the production. They are there because the themes of the show have real-world consequences. Bipolar Scotland brings vital awareness and understanding around bipolar disorder, stigma, support and the realities behind a condition that is still widely misunderstood. Held In Our Hearts brings deep care around baby loss and grief, which sits at the emotional root of the Goodman family’s story.

In practical terms, this means making space for signposting, sharing information with audiences, including the charities in our programme materials, and being careful with the language we use around the production. It also means understanding that partnership is not the same as endorsement. We should not hide behind charity logos and say, “That proves we have done the work.” The work is ongoing.

I think meaningful partnership also has to ask: who benefits? If the production raises awareness, but does nothing to direct people towards support, then we have missed an opportunity. If it uses painful subject matter to sell tickets, but does not take care over how audiences are held, then it has failed ethically. Our aim is for the production to create a bridge between the emotional experience of theatre and the practical reality of support, awareness and conversation.

It is also important to say that charity partnership does not make the show safe in a simplistic sense. The material is still difficult. It should be. But it does mean we are taking seriously the fact that audiences may leave with questions, memories, or feelings stirred up. We want there to be somewhere for that energy to go.

Next to Normal is, at its core, a family drama. What did you discover about the Goodman family that feels especially resonant for audiences in 2026, when conversations about trauma, care and survival are finally becoming less taboo?

What feels painfully resonant is that the Goodmans are not a family without love. They are a family with a huge amount of love, but not enough language. That feels very contemporary.

We are much better now, culturally, at saying words like trauma, grief, mental health and survival. That is progress. But naming something is not the same as knowing how to live with it. The Goodman family are caught in that gap. They are surrounded by feelings they cannot metabolise. They know something is wrong, but each of them has built a different survival strategy around it.

Diana’s survival is partly denial, partly memory, partly resistance. Dan’s survival is control, optimism and holding the family together at almost any cost. Natalie’s survival is achievement, distance and anger. None of these strategies are stupid. They make sense. But they are also damaging.

That feels very relevant in 2026 because so many families are trying to have more honest conversations about mental health, but they are doing it inside systems and histories that still reward silence. Families often become the place where care happens by default, whether or not anyone inside that family is equipped for it. The show asks what that does to people.

The thing I keep coming back to is that the Goodmans are not failing because they do not care. They are struggling because care without truth becomes unbearable. Everyone is trying to protect everyone else, and in doing so they isolate each other. That is a very recognisable family pattern, even outside the specific circumstances of the musical.

The show asks what it really means for a family to heal. Do you think healing is possible within the structures we currently have, or is the musical quietly arguing for something more radical?

I think the musical is deeply sceptical of neat healing. It does not offer the audience the comfort of a restored family where everyone has learned the lesson and pain has been tidied away. That is one of the reasons it remains such a powerful piece.

Healing, in Next to Normal, is not a return to the past. In fact, the desire to return to the past is part of what keeps the family trapped. Healing is closer to truth. It is the painful movement from pretending towards acknowledging. That does not fix everything, but it creates the possibility of something more honest.

So yes, I do think the show is quietly arguing for something more radical. Not in a slogan-led way, but in its emotional politics. It asks us to imagine care beyond endurance. It asks whether one person, one marriage, one family home can really hold the weight of serious mental illness, bereavement and trauma without wider support. It asks what we expect families, and often women in particular, to carry privately.

The structures we currently have can help people, absolutely. Treatment can help. Therapy can help. Medication can help. Community can help. But the show exposes what happens when support is fragmented, reactive or inaccessible, and when families only reach for help once they are already at breaking point.

The radical idea in the show is that survival is not enough. Being “fine” is not enough. Holding it together is not enough. Healing requires truth, agency, support, and sometimes the courage to let a family become something different from what it was. That is a much harder version of hope, but I think it is also a more truthful one.

Community theatre is often dismissed as “amateur,” yet your company’s work is described as ambitious, inclusive and values-led. What can community-rooted companies say about mental health and grief that commercial theatre often can’t?

Community-rooted theatre can speak from proximity. That is its power.

Commercial theatre can do extraordinary work, of course, but it is often shaped by commercial risk, marketability, celebrity, critical expectation and the pressure to package difficult themes in a way that can be sold. Community-rooted companies can sometimes move differently. We are not detached from the communities watching the work. We are part of them.

For Bare, the word “community” does not mean lowering artistic ambition. It means widening the purpose of the work. We are interested in making theatre that is artistically strong, but also socially connected. With a show like Next to Normal, that matters. Mental health and grief are not abstract topics for discussion. They are part of ordinary life. They sit in rehearsal rooms, workplaces, friendships, families and audiences.

Community theatre can also challenge the idea that only certain kinds of people are allowed to make “serious” work. Lived experience, empathy, care and local connection are not second-best substitutes for professionalism. They are forms of knowledge. That does not mean good intentions are enough. The work still has to be rigorous. The singing has to be strong. The staging has to be clear. The ethics have to be thought through. But the root system is different.

I think community-rooted companies can say: this story belongs in the room with us. It is not distant. It is not rarefied. It is not something happening to other people. It is here, in the city, in our families, in our friendships, in the audience. That creates a different kind of charge.

The musical’s rock score is famously intense and emotionally charged. How do you balance musical precision with the rawness the story demands, especially in a Fringe environment where time and space are tight?

The balance comes from understanding that rawness and precision are not opposites. In a score like Next to Normal, the rawness only really lands if the structure underneath it is secure.

The music is relentless. It demands stamina, accuracy, emotional intelligence and real trust between performers. If the cast are fighting the music technically, they cannot live inside the scene truthfully. So we have spent a lot of time treating the score as both music and text. The notes matter, the rhythms matter, but so does the thought underneath every phrase.

In rehearsal, I am interested in where the music interrupts normal behaviour. This is a domestic drama, but the score allows the pressure inside the family to erupt. Sometimes the music is what a character cannot say. Sometimes it is what they are trying not to know. Sometimes it is the speed of panic, or the force of memory, or the exhaustion of pretending.

The Fringe environment makes that more intense. You do not have endless time, endless space or endless technical resources. But that can also be clarifying. We have to ask what each moment is really about and strip away anything decorative. The Sanctuary at Paradise Green gives us an intimate relationship with the audience, so we do not need to push for scale all the time. The emotional size of the piece can come from focus.

My job is to create enough precision that the performers feel safe to be emotionally brave. If the staging, music and storytelling are held tightly, then the cast can risk more. Controlled does not mean cold. It means the production has a spine.

Next to Normal blends domestic realism with a high-energy rock score. What do you think this musical language allows you to express about mental health and family life that a more traditional score couldn’t?

The rock score allows the inner life of the family to become theatrical without becoming polite. That is crucial.

A more traditional score might risk smoothing the edges of the story. Next to Normal needs a musical language that can be jagged, obsessive, funny, furious, tender and overwhelming, sometimes within the same number. Mental health does not always move in clean emotional arcs. Family conflict does not always arrive in well-shaped sentences. The rock language gives the show volatility.

What I love is the collision between the ordinary and the extreme. This is a family in a house, dealing with school, marriage, doctors, dinner, birthdays, routines. But underneath that domestic surface, the emotional volume is huge. The score lets us hear that. It turns subtext into sound.

It also captures the way a family system can become rhythmic. People repeat patterns. They interrupt each other. They avoid the same subjects. They return to the same wounds. The music reflects that. It can feel like thought spiralling, memory returning, panic accelerating, or love trying to force its way through a blocked room.

For me, the score says that mental health and grief are not quiet subjects just because people often suffer quietly. Inside, they can be deafening. The rock score gives that inner noise a form.

If audiences leave the Sanctuary at Paradise Green talking about one social issue raised by your production, what do you hope it is, and why that one?

I hope they talk about the fact that care cannot sit solely inside one family.

That feels like the central social issue for me. The show is about mental health, grief, treatment and family, but underneath all of that is a question about where care is expected to happen, who is expected to provide it, and what happens when those people are already breaking.

The Goodman family are not untouched by support, but they are still profoundly alone in many ways. That loneliness is not just emotional. It is structural. It reflects how many people experience mental illness, bereavement and crisis: as something that becomes private very quickly, even when it is too big to be held privately.

If audiences leave talking about that, then the production has done something useful. Not because theatre should provide policy answers, but because theatre can make us feel the human cost of questions we sometimes discuss too abstractly. Who gets believed? Who gets supported? Who gets exhausted? Who disappears inside someone else’s crisis? Who is allowed to say they cannot cope?

I would love audiences to leave moved by the family, but also unsettled by the wider implications. The musical does not ask us simply to pity Diana, admire Dan, worry about Natalie or mourn what has happened to the Goodmans. It asks us to look at the whole ecosystem of care, silence, stigma and survival.

For me, that is why the piece still matters so much. It is not only asking, “How does one family heal?” It is asking, “What kind of world would make healing more possible?”

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